Optimizing Women's Metabolism: The Science of Muscle and Fat Loss

# The Truth About Women’s Metabolism, Muscle & Fat Loss at Every Age | Abbie Smith-Ryan, PhD
# https://www.youtube.com/watch/37iiEhRd2as

00:00:00.640 Has anyone ever told you you lift like a
00:00:02.639 girl? Probably not. But that doesn’t
00:00:05.040 stop people from saying you should lift
00:00:06.879 a certain way because you’re a woman.
00:00:08.880 But is that actually true? Or is that
00:00:11.759 just another myth holding women back
00:00:14.160 from reaching their full potential?
00:00:16.000 Today we’re diving deep into the science
00:00:18.400 of women’s metabolism, strength, and
00:00:20.880 longevity with one of the top
00:00:22.880 researchers in exercise physiology and
00:00:25.400 nutrition, Dr. Abby Smith Ryan. We’ll
00:00:28.800 break down the real differences between
00:00:30.800 men and women when it comes to training.
00:00:33.600 Whether cycle-based workouts actually
00:00:36.079 matter and the biggest mistakes women
00:00:38.960 make when it comes to fitness and
00:00:41.360 health. The data was showing us that
00:00:43.760 between kind of late 30s and into 40s,
00:00:47.120 there’s this pretty big change in um
00:00:49.840 body composition and both physical and
00:00:52.879 mental health. And so, um, we’re really
00:00:55.440 trying to understand some of the things
00:00:56.559 that are happening in that space. So, if
00:00:59.199 you’ve ever wondered whether you should
00:01:00.879 be training differently or eating
00:01:03.440 differently or more protein, if your
00:01:06.320 hormones really are to blame, then this
00:01:09.040 episode is for you.
00:01:15.280 Dr. Abby Smith Ryan, welcome to the
00:01:17.280 show. Thanks so much for having me. And
00:01:19.520 on a Sunday, no less. So, um, thank you
00:01:22.640 for all your time. Yeah. I can’t
00:01:24.320 believe, uh, we made it happen. So,
00:01:25.840 appreciate the time. Yes. And hopefully
00:01:27.200 not the last time we make it happen.
00:01:28.720 That would be great. Um, one of the
00:01:30.240 reasons why I really wanted you to come
00:01:31.759 on is because you have spent a lot of
00:01:34.640 time and energy in the body composition
00:01:38.000 in the exercise fizz space. And there
00:01:42.720 are a lot of controversies and I don’t
00:01:45.040 even think that controversies is the
00:01:46.399 right word, but there’s a lot of
00:01:47.840 information floating around. And at the
00:01:50.000 end of the day, people want to have a
00:01:52.399 better body composition and they want to
00:01:55.920 perform better. I don’t even want to say
00:01:57.600 prevent injury, but they they want to
00:01:59.040 perform better and that’s really what
00:02:01.280 led me to some of your work. So, thank
00:02:03.200 you. Yeah. I always thought Body Comp
00:02:05.680 was kind of boring, but it’s so
00:02:06.880 important. So, um, you are, um,
00:02:10.560 currently at UNCC. Mhm. And tell me a
00:02:14.080 little bit about your background as to
00:02:15.920 how you ended up where you are and
00:02:18.080 really what your lab is focusing on now.
00:02:20.160 Yeah. So, I’ve been at UNCC for 14 years
00:02:23.120 and um, currently I serve as the
00:02:25.840 associate chair for research and I
00:02:27.520 direct the applied physiology lab and
00:02:29.680 really my background is as an exercise
00:02:31.520 physiologist. So that’s where my
00:02:32.720 training is, but during my doctoral work
00:02:34.959 also really paired it with sport
00:02:36.760 nutrition. And then coming to a place
00:02:39.120 like UNCC really translated that more
00:02:41.599 into um I wouldn’t say clinical
00:02:43.519 populations, but overweight, obesity um
00:02:46.480 and cancer, osteoarthritis um to really
00:02:50.000 take that physiology and apply it to to
00:02:52.640 help people feel better. And um what are
00:02:56.480 some of the things that you’re working
00:02:57.599 on now? So over the last about five or
00:03:00.480 six years, a lot of my work has
00:03:01.920 translated mostly into pmenopause. Um,
00:03:04.800 and that’s not because I’m of the age of
00:03:07.280 pmenopause, but really because the data
00:03:09.200 was showing us that between kind of late
00:03:11.920 30s and into 40s, there’s this pretty
00:03:15.040 big change in um body composition and
00:03:18.879 both physical and mental health. And so
00:03:21.599 um we’re really trying to understand
00:03:22.959 some of the things that are happening in
00:03:24.319 that space um and trying to understand
00:03:27.519 and help those women. Would you say that
00:03:30.560 women have been somewhat left out of
00:03:33.400 research in terms of of studying them?
00:03:36.400 Yeah, it’s funny when we look at the
00:03:38.080 literature, there’s actually a lot of
00:03:39.920 old research on things like red S and
00:03:43.360 menstrual cycle dysfunction. So they
00:03:45.680 haven’t been left out in that space, but
00:03:47.680 very much from a scarcity mindset of
00:03:49.599 like not enough of fuel and the side
00:03:52.680 effects. And then when we start to look
00:03:55.120 at female only studies andor women
00:03:58.879 characterizing where they’re actually at
00:04:00.720 in their life stage, there’s very little
00:04:02.640 research there. Hm. And is it because
00:04:05.920 that it’s just really challenging
00:04:07.599 because the the female cycle or even
00:04:10.400 lack of you know it’s it’s easy to say
00:04:13.760 for example that someone is okay you’re
00:04:15.519 45 years old. I know that that
00:04:17.040 individual is 45 years old. It’s much
00:04:19.358 more difficult to say this woman’s LH is
00:04:22.320 this. All 45year-old women have a
00:04:25.040 hormone profile of this. We’re no longer
00:04:27.360 comparing apples to apples. Right. Yeah.
00:04:30.400 I mean, I think everyone will say it’s a
00:04:32.160 little bit harder, which is a bit of a
00:04:33.680 copout. Okay, I like that. I mean, I
00:04:35.680 think it takes a little bit extra
00:04:37.040 resources and a little bit more time,
00:04:39.120 but honestly, I think it really stems
00:04:40.720 from there’s a lack of education of how
00:04:43.120 to study women, and so they’re just left
00:04:45.280 out. Meaning, there is no guidance in
00:04:48.080 the fa space of physiology of how to
00:04:50.479 track menstrual cycle, what does it
00:04:52.240 mean? And even especially as a woman is
00:04:55.120 in their mid-40s, that hormonal status
00:04:57.440 is changing. So that variability makes
00:05:00.400 it harder to do research and is often
00:05:02.960 considered a limitation. Um but that’s
00:05:05.759 what we need to study. Right. Well, and
00:05:07.759 I think that the next question that I
00:05:09.280 would have is does it matter?
00:05:12.320 What do you mean does it matter? Does it
00:05:13.600 matter? For example,
00:05:15.720 um would a woman’s cycle impact her
00:05:20.479 performance outcomes? Does it impact her
00:05:22.479 body composition? Would that be
00:05:23.919 something that we say, “Okay, we need to
00:05:26.800 study it.” or perhaps it maybe has
00:05:29.199 minimal effect. Yeah, it’s a great
00:05:31.199 question. I think at a minimum we need
00:05:33.120 to characterize it. We need to state
00:05:35.199 where they’re at and what some of those
00:05:38.000 um scenarios look like, which we didn’t
00:05:39.680 used to do. And I’m even guilty of that.
00:05:41.440 Like our early studies don’t say
00:05:43.759 anything about um the age or the
00:05:46.080 menstrual cycle status. And so I think
00:05:48.479 some of it does matter when we start to
00:05:50.320 look at and what we know about sexbased
00:05:52.560 differences in physiology, things like
00:05:54.800 muscle fiber type and fatigue resistance
00:05:57.120 and blood flow. Um those things will
00:06:01.360 impact our
00:06:02.600 outcomes. I think we don’t see as much
00:06:05.199 of an effect in a group level, but it
00:06:07.759 does matter individually. And I think
00:06:09.520 that’s more um I mean we’re women and I
00:06:12.880 think a lot of women need not validation
00:06:15.440 but they’ve experienced things or things
00:06:17.600 change across the menstrual cycle and so
00:06:20.160 more data to understand or to provide
00:06:22.479 some onus on that of here’s what’s
00:06:24.400 actually happening. Do you think that
00:06:27.199 there is the do you think that the inter
00:06:31.000 intervariability has to do with a
00:06:32.800 sexbased difference? Again this is a
00:06:34.319 really broad question. Is it a sexbased
00:06:36.639 difference or is it that, you know, for
00:06:39.400 example, my husband has been extremely
00:06:41.840 physically active his whole life. He has
00:06:43.759 a ton of type two muscle fibers. Um, and
00:06:48.080 let’s say I was someone who typically
00:06:49.360 focused on endurance. Maybe I was more
00:06:52.319 leaning type towards type type one.
00:06:55.840 Would it have to do with do we know what
00:06:58.080 sex-based
00:06:59.319 differences the impact of those are
00:07:01.680 versus just training and lifestyle?
00:07:04.479 Yeah. So, one I like this question of I
00:07:06.560 think there’s a lot of debate about sex
00:07:08.080 based differences and I would say who
00:07:09.680 the [ __ ] cares because like really I
00:07:12.080 mean yeah yeah you know like I I don’t
00:07:13.759 need to be compared to a man. I need we
00:07:15.919 need to understand like how do we help
00:07:17.680 women and they’re all different. Um I
00:07:20.400 actually think there’s some really great
00:07:21.759 data on these sex based differences and
00:07:24.319 the best way I like to describe it is a
00:07:27.039 woman’s going to perform high level no
00:07:29.199 matter where she’s at in her menstrual
00:07:30.880 cycle status. Um, but I do think there’s
00:07:33.919 some contributions that might vary. Um,
00:07:36.000 and even muscle fiber types that are
00:07:37.919 different. And so from a physiology
00:07:39.520 perspective, how I would interpret that
00:07:41.280 would be perhaps um, so a lot of my work
00:07:44.080 is with high-intensity interval
00:07:45.560 training, perhaps our rest interval
00:07:48.400 needs to be slightly different to see
00:07:50.160 the same adaptation that the research is
00:07:52.720 reporting in men. Wow. So will we see
00:07:55.039 adaptation? Yes. But if we want to hone
00:07:57.520 it in, we might need to alter some of
00:07:59.520 those approaches. Tell me more that I I
00:08:02.479 love high-intensity interval training
00:08:03.759 and I think that we both have very busy
00:08:06.000 schedules. I mean, bring it on that that
00:08:09.440 you know, you get a lot done. You sure
00:08:11.759 do. In a short period of time. Tell me a
00:08:14.000 little bit about what high-intensity
00:08:15.599 interval training is, what you’ve seen
00:08:17.919 for u men and women. Yeah. So, a lot of
00:08:20.800 my work started here because of that
00:08:22.879 reason. It’s very effective and time
00:08:25.199 efficient. And you know, we all hear
00:08:26.960 like we don’t have time for exercise.
00:08:28.479 Well, everyone has time for 20 minutes,
00:08:30.160 10 minutes. Totally. Um, and it’s very
00:08:33.279 effective on many aspects of body
00:08:35.519 composition and cardio metabolic health.
00:08:37.360 And so, um, some of our initial work has
00:08:40.479 really focused on 10 sets of one minute
00:08:42.880 on, one minute off. Not because it’s the
00:08:45.440 best approach, but it’s very easy for
00:08:47.680 someone to go, you can do anything for a
00:08:49.680 minute. Versus a lot of the original
00:08:51.760 really great work is 30 seconds at a
00:08:54.320 percentage of your body weight. People
00:08:55.920 have a hard time doing that. Um, but at
00:08:58.880 that same time that 1 minute on 1 minute
00:09:01.279 off is I mean it go hard for a minute
00:09:04.399 something you couldn’t do for a minute
00:09:05.680 and 20. We’ve done that in cancer
00:09:07.920 patients. We’ve done it in OA. We’ve
00:09:10.240 done it in very obese individuals and it
00:09:13.279 seems to work for males and females. Um,
00:09:16.560 we also have some really interesting
00:09:18.080 data in an animal model that uh
00:09:20.959 genetically bred mice that have a
00:09:22.800 paradoxical response to exercise,
00:09:25.399 meaning they gain fat and lose muscle.
00:09:28.480 That I that is wild, right? How is that
00:09:31.519 even possible? Well, it happens in
00:09:32.720 humans, too. What? They just then, you
00:09:36.080 know, it’s often those those are the
00:09:37.760 people that say, “Oh, you know, you need
00:09:39.600 to count your calories or you’re not
00:09:41.600 exercising right.” Wait, wait, wait. So
00:09:43.600 is there are individuals that would
00:09:45.600 train and have a paradoxical response to
00:09:48.800 exercise? Well, yes. The hard part in
00:09:51.200 the lab is you can’t control everything.
00:09:53.360 So we looked at it in a mouse model and
00:09:56.320 and for the listener, mouse models are
00:09:58.160 very easy to control. You control their
00:10:00.240 entire environment, what they eat,
00:10:02.640 they’re they’re living in sterile
00:10:04.000 environments. It it’s very challenging
00:10:07.279 to translate that to humans, but it is a
00:10:09.279 basis for where science often starts.
00:10:12.720 Yeah. And I am not an animal researcher
00:10:15.279 um but partnered with a
00:10:17.079 geneticist and it seemed like that hit
00:10:20.519 response when putting mice through hit
00:10:23.519 training they actually then responded
00:10:26.640 like they should. So if you take a
00:10:28.240 genetically bred mouse that gains fat
00:10:31.360 and loses muscle they actually were able
00:10:33.680 to gain fat or sorry lose fat and gain
00:10:36.640 muscle with hit especially in women. So
00:10:40.640 that was enough um data for me to say
00:10:43.519 okay using this model as we as we go on
00:10:46.880 is a really good model um if we want to
00:10:49.440 try and look at some of these
00:10:50.480 physiological adaptations and did that
00:10:53.200 and now you’ve done that in humans.
00:10:54.959 We’ve done it in and we did it before
00:10:56.800 that in in humans and continue to use it
00:10:59.440 as a really good stimulus um for lots of
00:11:02.959 different changes in muscle um body fat
00:11:06.240 not as much depending on there’s a
00:11:08.560 nutritional component there. uh as well
00:11:10.640 as things like insulin sensitivity, fat
00:11:13.680 oxidation for the high. Have you um ever
00:11:17.920 spoken to Martin Gabbala? Not directly,
00:11:20.160 but a huge fan of his work. We love
00:11:22.399 Martin. He’s amazing. And we talked to
00:11:25.519 him a lot about high-intensity interval
00:11:27.200 training. He is, for those of you
00:11:28.640 listening, he’s just I would say he’s
00:11:30.640 the ultimate OG. Yes. In highintensity
00:11:33.440 interval training. and the um I want to
00:11:38.399 highlight a little bit about how one
00:11:40.880 could make this effective and as how it
00:11:44.480 would also work. So for
00:11:46.279 example, if we have someone listening to
00:11:48.560 the show who has never done high
00:11:50.000 intensity interval training,
00:11:52.720 could you re make a recommendation as to
00:11:55.279 how one would begin? Yes, and I love
00:11:57.600 this question. And um the very first
00:11:59.279 study I did at North Carolina was
00:12:02.240 interval training in overweight and
00:12:03.839 obese men and women. Perfect. And our
00:12:05.760 ethics committee basically said you
00:12:08.079 can’t do this. They’re they won’t be
00:12:09.760 able to do it. Like physiologically
00:12:12.000 speaking that’s not true. And so we
00:12:14.240 finally got it through. Um and in
00:12:17.200 reality it’s all relative to where
00:12:19.600 someone is starting. And I say that like
00:12:22.079 we have done it in bone marrow
00:12:23.680 transplant patients before
00:12:25.720 transplantation. meaning anyone can do
00:12:27.920 it. It’s all relative to fitness. So
00:12:29.680 someone that’s starting out, if we do it
00:12:31.839 in a very non-scientific way,
00:12:34.000 essentially um we would start try and
00:12:36.480 aim for five to six times of one minute
00:12:40.000 hard, one minute rest. And that could be
00:12:43.279 a standill. It could be an active
00:12:46.519 recovery. That one minute ideally is
00:12:49.440 something that you could not sustain for
00:12:51.600 a minute and 20. it’s hard enough for
00:12:53.760 you where you finish and you’re like,
00:12:55.519 “Oh, I really need a break.” And would
00:12:57.680 we say that it is, you know, just taking
00:13:01.360 some of the signs out of it? I know it
00:13:02.720 sounds weird, but because my mom, let’s
00:13:04.560 say my mom, my mom is 72 years old. Um,
00:13:07.040 I recently posted on her that she was
00:13:08.639 74. She was very upset. And I said,
00:13:10.720 “Listen, Lenny, you look great for 74,
00:13:12.959 but even better for 72. And if we were
00:13:15.279 to say, I need you to do highintensity
00:13:16.959 interval training. I want you to go at
00:13:19.600 80% your V2 max.” G no one you don’t
00:13:23.200 have to do that. Okay. Yeah. So like and
00:13:25.120 we’ve done it both. We’ve actually done
00:13:26.800 this similar protocol within a family
00:13:28.959 medicine clinic to see how feasible is
00:13:31.760 it for people to do at home. Um and the
00:13:34.720 be the biggest translation is if you
00:13:36.560 come to the lab, we would do it very
00:13:38.320 prescriptive based on V2. If you do it
00:13:41.200 at home, it might be slightly less uh
00:13:43.920 that we would prescribe. So it just take
00:13:46.240 a little bit longer to see effects. But
00:13:48.079 as you know with Dr. Dr. Gabala’s work.
00:13:50.399 Um, really after one or two sessions,
00:13:54.000 there’s metabolic adaptations, which is
00:13:56.160 really important, particularly for
00:13:57.920 someone like myself. I want exercise to
00:14:00.279 feel not easier, like if you’re doing it
00:14:02.720 right, it should be hard, but when
00:14:04.079 you’re done, life feels better and
00:14:06.880 easier. And with HIT, those adaptations
00:14:10.000 are so much faster. And so for someone
00:14:12.800 like your mom, it’s going and doing an
00:14:16.480 exercise that brings your heart rate up.
00:14:18.480 Um, and like I said, doing something
00:14:20.160 that you couldn’t sustain for longer
00:14:21.600 than a minute. And that could be, you
00:14:23.519 know, a lot of times we worry about
00:14:24.720 joints, could be on a bike, it could be
00:14:26.959 stairs, it could be any method that just
00:14:29.839 elevates heart rate more than you could
00:14:32.000 doing more of a sustained exercise. And
00:14:34.160 for some people, you know, you’re
00:14:35.440 talking about cancer patients and before
00:14:37.279 they do bone marrow transplants, it
00:14:39.199 could literally be sitting down and
00:14:41.680 standing up from a chair, walking. Yes.
00:14:44.320 These things. And it really is
00:14:45.760 individual. Absolutely.
00:14:47.920 Does one have to um push harder than
00:14:51.120 that? So for
00:14:52.360 example, let’s say you know some of the
00:14:55.519 initial work is the Tabata style where
00:14:56.959 it’s 30 seconds on. I mean when you go
00:14:59.440 all out, you cannot I personally cannot
00:15:03.360 go 100% which is I know different than
00:15:06.320 high intensity. I cannot sustain that
00:15:08.240 for a minute. Yes. Um and I think it’s
00:15:10.240 good. So I I think this also brings in
00:15:12.240 some of the sexbased differences. Now
00:15:15.040 you brought up the example of you know
00:15:16.959 maybe you had more endurance background
00:15:18.959 but a lot of time women do tend to have
00:15:20.959 more type one muscle fibers more
00:15:22.560 oxidative. Do we know why? Um do we know
00:15:26.079 why? I don’t know why. I mean some of it
00:15:28.399 is is more um it’s maybe not direct but
00:15:32.160 also related to fuel utilization
00:15:34.800 hormones. It’s not a cause and effect
00:15:37.120 though. Would we say that if um a woman
00:15:40.880 and a man were to train similarly, would
00:15:43.519 you then negate the fiber type
00:15:45.680 differences? So I guess the bigger
00:15:47.279 question is are we talking about
00:15:48.320 untrained individuals? No. Um so I would
00:15:51.440 say to answer your first question, can
00:15:53.519 chronic training overcome some of our
00:15:55.519 baseline genetic differences?
00:15:56.880 Absolutely. That’s why we train. Um but
00:15:59.920 women tend to be more fatigue resistant
00:16:02.480 and have more type one fibers. And so it
00:16:05.519 goes back to your allout. I’ll use
00:16:07.839 myself for example. I was probably meant
00:16:10.240 to be an anorobic athlete, but I was an
00:16:13.519 endurance athlete. You were? Yeah. I ran
00:16:15.600 cross country and track in college. Um
00:16:18.399 but I can’t go all out. I have one pace
00:16:20.800 and I could go forever. Well, it’s fast,
00:16:23.199 but I also can’t, you know, um and so
00:16:25.920 something like a Tabata style, I could
00:16:28.399 do that again and again. Uh but it’s
00:16:30.399 about the same pace that I would go for
00:16:31.839 a minute. And so some of those oxidative
00:16:34.519 adaptations
00:16:36.199 vary and so essentially also that you
00:16:39.360 have to think about a minute is slightly
00:16:40.880 different adaptations than 30 seconds
00:16:43.040 when we talk about energy systems. So if
00:16:45.440 we talk more about cardioabolic health a
00:16:47.839 lot of times that slightly longer
00:16:49.680 exercise bout can result in some of
00:16:51.759 these mitochondrial changes fat
00:16:53.920 oxidation uh changes that might be
00:16:56.079 better for insulin sensitivity, glucose
00:16:58.720 regulation. Hydration is so important
00:17:01.279 and we typically recommend half your
00:17:03.519 body weight in ounces which makes a lot
00:17:06.400 of water to drink. I struggle to drink
00:17:08.480 straight water. So adding in element has
00:17:10.480 been key for me for a number of reasons.
00:17:12.640 I don’t get enough electrolytes in my
00:17:14.400 food and when I am drinking just water,
00:17:16.959 I swear I don’t seem to recover as well.
00:17:19.599 Element has been great for me and my
00:17:21.520 family. With 1,000 milligs of sodium,
00:17:23.919 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 mg
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00:18:03.799 nnt.com/dion. And what I’m hearing you
00:18:05.679 say is that there may be some benefit to
00:18:08.480 doing more. Is that what you’re saying?
00:18:10.400 there may be some benefit to doing some
00:18:13.200 more endurance or we shouldn’t even
00:18:14.559 define it that way because when people
00:18:16.400 say endurance I know that they are
00:18:18.400 thinking zone two 45 minutes and I I see
00:18:21.760 you nodding your head and meaning that
00:18:23.840 you we are probably very much in
00:18:25.840 alignment I do not believe that people
00:18:27.280 need to be doing that from the data that
00:18:29.120 there are multiple ways to improve fat
00:18:31.120 oxidation endurance mitochondrial
00:18:33.559 mitogenesis all without doing
00:18:37.600 zone 2 is having its crazy in the
00:18:40.320 spotlight moment. Yeah, I shouldn’t
00:18:41.840 admit this, but I was on a podcast and
00:18:43.520 someone was like, “What do you think of
00:18:44.720 zone two?” I was like, “I don’t know
00:18:46.640 what that is.” Like, “What do you mean
00:18:47.919 by zone two, moderate intensity?” Um,
00:18:50.320 no. I think people should do moderate
00:18:52.679 intensity, you know, kind of low
00:18:54.480 intensity duration exercise if it’s good
00:18:56.240 for their mental health and they want
00:18:57.840 to, you know, add some some exercise.
00:19:00.480 But that is not um I actually think it’s
00:19:02.640 harder on the joints. I agree with you
00:19:04.640 completely. Mhm. Um, and that is
00:19:07.520 probably music to people’s ears that
00:19:09.120 they do not have to do long bouts of
00:19:11.919 quote endurance type training with to
00:19:14.000 not
00:19:15.000 to they are still able to get the same
00:19:17.840 adaptation with high-intensity interval
00:19:19.760 training. Well, yeah. And that honestly
00:19:21.120 that’s why we’ve continued to study HIT
00:19:23.600 because the best way to describe it is
00:19:25.360 if I was just going to do endurance
00:19:27.120 training or zone 2, it may take me 12 to
00:19:30.400 16 weeks to see any sort of
00:19:32.080 cardiovascular benefit. And that’s if
00:19:33.919 I’m doing it right. Most of the time
00:19:35.440 people are still too low of an intensity
00:19:37.840 whereas with HIT we see changes in 3
00:19:40.240 weeks. Tell me what changes you see. We
00:19:42.480 see improvements in V2 max and a lot of
00:19:44.720 times people think that’s just related
00:19:46.640 to fitness but V2 max is the number one
00:19:49.280 indicator of cardiovascular health. So a
00:19:51.679 lot of times that’s what we want quality
00:19:53.600 of life functionality. Um we see
00:19:56.240 improvements in muscle. Actually, our
00:19:58.640 lab was one of the first to show that
00:20:00.240 HIT can increase muscle quality or um um
00:20:05.200 amount both um it does depend on the
00:20:08.240 mode. So, for instance, um our work was
00:20:11.520 with biking and obviously that places a
00:20:13.840 bigger load on the the quad muscle and
00:20:16.960 so we saw improvements in muscle size
00:20:19.280 but more importantly muscle quality
00:20:21.200 which we know is often the bigger
00:20:22.720 target. And when we define muscle
00:20:24.640 quality, I think in the literature that
00:20:26.960 it’s defined by strength, but are we
00:20:30.559 talking about muscle biopsies and
00:20:32.240 actually looking at the tissue? It’s a
00:20:34.640 good question. So, we do mostly
00:20:35.919 non-invasive work and there is a way to
00:20:38.960 measure muscle quality of strength over
00:20:41.280 the amount of muscle. We use a couple
00:20:44.000 different approaches. One being
00:20:46.320 ultrasound and the best way I like to
00:20:48.400 describe it is would be a low muscle
00:20:51.280 quality would be more similar to like a
00:20:53.280 ribeye fill of fat infiltration
00:20:56.000 connective tissue versus a filt um
00:20:58.720 leaner tissue and you can do that with
00:21:00.559 ultrasound um we also use a technique
00:21:03.120 called PQCT which is basically a CT scan
00:21:06.640 of the quad um and MRI which those are
00:21:10.640 the gold standards so MRI for sure most
00:21:13.360 people don’t use CT so that certainly
00:21:15.520 more advanced and then ultrasound for
00:21:17.840 the listener it seems to be there’s a
00:21:20.559 variation depending on who uses it right
00:21:22.960 it’s user dependent technician dependent
00:21:25.840 but I think that’s amazing yeah and a
00:21:28.000 lot of my works fairly uh beginning was
00:21:31.200 to look at the um reliability of that
00:21:33.919 technique and validity meaning is it
00:21:36.799 actually measuring what it’s supposed to
00:21:38.240 be measuring and how sensitive it is is
00:21:40.240 it so like when we think about a lot of
00:21:42.000 these
00:21:43.159 changes we’re understanding if it’s
00:21:45.360 actually a real change or if it’s coming
00:21:47.360 from measurement error and we’ve got it
00:21:49.760 where it’s coming from change. That’s
00:21:52.159 tremendous and that is so incredible
00:21:54.559 when we’re thinking about how do we make
00:21:55.919 the world healthier and what are the
00:21:58.240 actual tools? How do we make exercise
00:21:59.919 more prescriptive? Absolutely. When you
00:22:03.039 are because I know also previously
00:22:04.799 you’ve done work on DEXA. Um, and I I do
00:22:07.840 want to circle back to the DEXA imaging
00:22:11.120 versus CT versus MRI versus using
00:22:13.679 ultrasound looking at muscle quality. I
00:22:16.480 want to finish up really quickly with
00:22:17.760 HIT. When someone is improving, would
00:22:21.640 they once it becomes easy to do that
00:22:25.280 minute of biking? How can someone self-
00:22:28.559 adjust?
00:22:30.240 Yeah. Well, well, two things. This goes
00:22:31.840 back to your other question. If someone
00:22:33.360 is doing HIT every day, that means
00:22:35.919 they’re not doing it right. Like, you
00:22:37.360 really should only be able to do it um I
00:22:39.360 mean, I would say max three times a
00:22:40.799 week. And there’s good data to say that
00:22:42.640 too much is not good. Um and every day,
00:22:46.400 I mean, think about it. Some days we’re
00:22:47.679 more tired, which is a good I don’t know
00:22:49.440 what you’re talking about.
00:22:51.440 And then you pan to the uh multiple
00:22:54.159 energy drinks from every single company
00:22:55.919 you could ever imagine. Yeah. No. Um I
00:22:57.840 mean, some days you might not be able to
00:22:58.960 do as many intervals and you adjust that
00:23:00.720 way. your body’s still adapting. And
00:23:02.480 that’s the best part about it is no
00:23:04.320 matter how fit or unfit, you can still
00:23:07.120 do it. And so it’s more of
00:23:09.559 self-regulation. It’s great to measure
00:23:11.440 your heart rate if you can. Another um
00:23:14.640 good way is breathing rate. So it goes
00:23:17.039 back like do something that you couldn’t
00:23:18.960 do for a minute and 20 or a minute and a
00:23:21.200 half and that’s a good intensity. We So
00:23:24.559 um the listener is going to be doing
00:23:26.159 this. They’re going to do it three times
00:23:27.120 a week and they’re going to do it for 10
00:23:28.400 minutes. Is that fair? one minute on or
00:23:30.960 are you go with 20 minutes where where
00:23:33.440 is the amount of time for the outcome
00:23:37.000 of can we pick body so could we pick
00:23:40.880 body composition V2 max would it be fair
00:23:43.919 to pick all of those yeah I mean I think
00:23:46.840 my key outcome is usually V2 max because
00:23:50.159 that’s telling us then there’s
00:23:51.679 cardiovascular adaptations which is what
00:23:53.760 we’re training um and we’ve shown that
00:23:56.080 something like five or six bouts is is
00:23:58.720 enough. Uh but even if someone starts
00:24:01.679 with four bouts, if they’re really
00:24:03.120 sedentary a week, um four minutes, so 8
00:24:07.520 minutes total, they’ll see some benefit.
00:24:10.240 Um now, working towards that 10, so 10
00:24:13.279 minutes of work, but it’s a 20 minute
00:24:15.520 workout tends to be a really good sweet
00:24:18.000 spot. Doing that a couple times, we we
00:24:20.159 have data showing twice a week over
00:24:22.640 three weeks will show adaptation. um and
00:24:25.679 other labs show that even one or two
00:24:28.000 sessions will result in some of those
00:24:29.679 changes. And if you were to think about
00:24:32.240 the hierarchy of importance, would you
00:24:35.200 say that that um would be critical as
00:24:39.840 opposed to, you know, and I don’t want
00:24:41.200 to say as opposed to resistance training
00:24:43.120 because we we’re we’re clearly laying
00:24:44.880 out that this is not time inensive and
00:24:47.360 that if you want to improve your
00:24:48.480 cardiovascular health, you can do
00:24:50.320 high-intensity interval training. You
00:24:51.760 could do it twice a week for the the
00:24:54.400 more untrained you are, the bigger the
00:24:56.720 benefit you’re going to get. The more
00:24:58.320 trained you are, obviously you’re going
00:25:00.240 to probably have to push yourself. Y but
00:25:03.200 I think everyone can do that.
00:25:06.400 The outcome you look at is V2 max. What
00:25:09.600 would be the secondary outcome? Yeah. So
00:25:11.840 I mean I think that’s the we are also
00:25:14.720 seeing some support on muscle as well as
00:25:18.000 um some initial work that shows that
00:25:19.919 maybe um there’s a reduction in visceral
00:25:22.080 fat which is hard to it goes back to
00:25:24.720 just the mitochondrial changes. We often
00:25:27.919 don’t control diet um high level. We
00:25:31.520 control kind of acute feeding because of
00:25:33.880 feasibility, right? Obviously, diet
00:25:35.919 plays a big role in body composition. Um
00:25:38.880 and I like to create studies that have a
00:25:41.120 very translatable and feasible outcome.
00:25:44.159 And so by just making some small changes
00:25:46.640 around HIT, uh we do seem to see some
00:25:49.919 changes with a loss of fat particularly
00:25:52.799 around the abdomen. So the visceral fat
00:25:55.120 as well and some slight improvements in
00:25:57.840 muscle size and quality and that’s
00:25:59.520 without hit or resistance training.
00:26:01.440 Would I recommend not to do resistance
00:26:03.120 training? You know we we have seen that
00:26:04.640 too. Um obviously I am not in the space
00:26:08.559 of academia anymore. I mean I still work
00:26:11.039 and collaborate on studies but we did
00:26:13.440 see that when I was doing research we
00:26:15.679 saw improvements in muscle hypertrophy
00:26:17.919 with highintensity interval training not
00:26:21.120 uh and that is separate than resistance
00:26:22.799 training. Yep. which is it when we think
00:26:25.039 about barriers, anyone can do HIT. You
00:26:27.919 don’t have to have access to a lot of
00:26:30.240 equipment and so it’s a really good way
00:26:32.880 to add into training. Now, if you have
00:26:35.120 body composition goals, it would be
00:26:37.039 beneficial to add in resistance
00:26:38.799 training. Um, but HIT is a great, you
00:26:41.520 know, I would say it’s hard to lift
00:26:43.120 heavy every single day. Um, and so HIT
00:26:45.760 is a good way to kind of integrate
00:26:47.760 within your daily routine. Was there
00:26:50.400 anything surprising um in the research
00:26:52.880 that you found that was unexpected in
00:26:55.279 looking at high-intensity interval
00:26:56.559 training? Yeah, one thing comes to mind
00:26:58.559 that first study we did where our ethics
00:27:00.799 board said you couldn’t do it. Um we did
00:27:03.760 a little survey of enjoyment. So here
00:27:06.000 are these untrained overweight obese men
00:27:08.000 and women. Um and they significantly
00:27:10.960 enjoyed it. And the more they did it,
00:27:12.960 the more enjoyment they got. And to me
00:27:15.120 as a physiologist, it was really
00:27:16.559 important to see, well, if you teach
00:27:18.640 them what it feels like to be hard and
00:27:21.440 that it’s a good feeling, they actually
00:27:23.600 start to enjoy it. And I think you can
00:27:25.919 start to feel the benefits, like you
00:27:28.400 walk up the stairs and you’re not as
00:27:29.760 winded. You can get out of bed easier.
00:27:31.600 And so that enjoyment piece, you and I
00:27:34.080 both know sometimes it’s really hard to
00:27:35.840 get motivated to go do the workout. Are
00:27:38.080 you kidding? I’m already bitching about.
00:27:39.440 So tomorrow morning, maybe you’ll join
00:27:40.880 me. 6:45 we will hit the gym. and I’m
00:27:43.600 already bitching about it. I already
00:27:44.640 know. I already know I don’t want to get
00:27:47.440 up to do it. Well, I will absolutely
00:27:49.200 join you. I’m glad you said that. Um,
00:27:50.960 but no one ever finishes a workout and
00:27:52.559 says, “Oh, I wish I didn’t do that.” And
00:27:54.559 so, it’s that piece of that adrenaline
00:27:57.279 and those endorphins that people
00:27:58.960 actually feel, which I think is great.
00:28:00.559 So, we can increase that. Um, and then
00:28:03.600 the other thing that I’ve seen is we’ve
00:28:06.399 literally had to wheel people to the
00:28:08.240 bike. So like individuals with
00:28:10.360 osteoarthritis or like I mentioned bone
00:28:12.720 marrow transplant patients, we saw that
00:28:15.279 if you can increase V2 max prior to
00:28:17.440 transplantation, it actually improves
00:28:19.840 mortality rates. So it directly helps
00:28:21.840 with success. We’ve published that. Um
00:28:24.399 and then those OA individuals, it
00:28:26.480 actually reduces pain. So a lot of times
00:28:29.200 people say, I can’t bike. I have knee
00:28:30.880 pain. But in reality, because of the
00:28:32.960 strength of the muscle and the range of
00:28:35.440 motion, um there’s some metabolic
00:28:37.279 changes. It helps with inflammation over
00:28:39.200 time and reduced pain in these kind of
00:28:41.919 nonfunctional individuals. And you
00:28:44.480 mentioned something earlier that it
00:28:46.320 really is, it’s interesting because
00:28:47.679 high-intensity interval training, you
00:28:49.679 provide the stimulus and the benefit
00:28:51.840 actually is pretty acute. It happens
00:28:54.799 quickly, meaning you’ll see changes
00:28:58.919 um I don’t know immediate and two to
00:29:01.840 three days later. Is that fair to say?
00:29:03.679 Absolutely. And I think the hard part I
00:29:05.520 mean coming from a distance runner like
00:29:07.360 you want to finish a workout and feel
00:29:09.840 exhausted. Now hit you do but like it’s
00:29:12.799 hard to believe 10 minutes will do that
00:29:14.960 but in reality there’s not a lot of
00:29:17.279 caloric expenditure. There’s a lot of
00:29:19.360 glycogen utilization within the workout.
00:29:21.840 But a lot of the changes come within the
00:29:24.000 24 to 48 hours after.
00:29:27.679 Two things here. You often see people
00:29:30.559 will do a high-intensity interval
00:29:32.240 training workout and maybe they’ll go to
00:29:34.799 Barry’s boot camp again. But one thing
00:29:36.240 that you said that if you are able to do
00:29:38.320 these things multiple times a week, you
00:29:40.799 are not doing it hard enough. Well, it’s
00:29:42.399 just maybe not interval training like
00:29:44.080 boot camp is not quite the same as
00:29:47.399 concentrated highintensity interval
00:29:49.440 training. That doesn’t mean there’s not
00:29:50.720 benefit, but always benefit from a
00:29:53.919 intensity standpoint because what what
00:29:55.440 you’re really talking about is exercise
00:29:57.039 intensity, right? And if you are working
00:29:59.440 intense enough, you are not going to be
00:30:01.279 able to do this multiple times a week,
00:30:02.880 right? And nor should you. Nor should
00:30:04.320 you. And that’s one other reason to
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00:31:00.720 benefit for muscle health, strength,
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00:31:12.080 simply by going to
00:31:16.039 timeline.com/lion. That’s t i m l i
00:31:22.120 ne.com/lion. You mentioned glycogen
00:31:24.880 utilization which is a sto storage form
00:31:26.799 of glucose. Many people I
00:31:30.200 think by unintentionally counterbalance
00:31:34.159 any weight loss
00:31:36.480 uh goals or progress they can make
00:31:39.279 because they finish those workouts and
00:31:41.120 then they will pound smoothies or a lot
00:31:44.720 of high carbohydrate food. I’m curious
00:31:47.919 as to your thoughts on that because we
00:31:49.679 are using some glycogen doing these
00:31:52.320 high-intensity interval trainings, but
00:31:54.799 do we need to postraining fuel in a
00:31:58.960 significantly different way? Yeah, I
00:32:00.880 actually think of it differently um
00:32:03.440 because I feel like most people go into
00:32:05.519 exercise underfueled because they’re
00:32:07.519 trying to exercise to lose weight, which
00:32:10.080 then can impact adaptation. But yes, if
00:32:13.840 our goal is body composition in muscle,
00:32:16.799 we don’t want
00:32:17.880 to refuel. I mean, we want to refuel,
00:32:20.320 but it doesn’t have to be all
00:32:21.519 carbohydrate. Uh that those changes to
00:32:24.480 muscle glycogen result in some of those
00:32:26.480 mitochondrial changes and in for the
00:32:28.399 better. Helps with that glucose
00:32:29.960 regulation. Do you want some carbs?
00:32:32.080 Absolutely. Should it be all
00:32:33.679 carbohydrates? No. I mean, that’s where
00:32:35.200 some of the amino acid and the nutrient
00:32:36.960 timing work where we’ve spent some time
00:32:38.799 comes in. How do we optimize that? Do
00:32:40.960 you think it matters if it’s um very
00:32:44.000 close to post-workout versus within that
00:32:46.480 24-hour time frame? I feel like this is
00:32:48.799 a hot debate right now. Um which is so
00:32:51.760 funny. So I think and I’ll have a bias
00:32:54.640 of a lot of our work is showing that
00:32:56.720 pre-ex exercise nutrition particularly
00:32:58.880 for women is maybe more optimal but we
00:33:01.360 have to look at the bigger picture. A
00:33:02.880 lot of that post-workout fueling one, it
00:33:05.440 depends on the duration of your workout,
00:33:07.360 the intensity, and when your last meal
00:33:09.440 was. So, if someone goes into exercise
00:33:12.880 fasted, which I would not recommend.
00:33:15.120 See, I train fasted all the time. You
00:33:16.880 do? And I’ve trained fasted my entire
00:33:19.840 training career. Well, then we need your
00:33:22.159 secrets. I’m h Yes. I I’m happy to share
00:33:25.279 them. Yeah. Always. Um, so if you then
00:33:28.720 are fasted, then you’d want to fuel more
00:33:31.679 quickly after your exercise so that you
00:33:34.320 can then replenish your stores or at
00:33:35.919 least have I think more of it from a
00:33:37.519 protein synthesis side. You have amino
00:33:39.120 acids available. Yeah. Uh and I I was
00:33:41.200 talking to Don Layman about this and you
00:33:43.600 know based on his work and kind of the
00:33:46.279 collective data so far from our
00:33:49.679 perspective it as long as it’s unless
00:33:52.080 someone is totally untrained or perhaps
00:33:54.720 has a lower protein diet the anabolic
00:33:58.279 window it just seems that it it might
00:34:01.200 not matter as long as you’re getting it
00:34:02.799 in within that day.
00:34:05.760 I guess I don’t know that literature. It
00:34:07.760 seems the what I have seen is within a
00:34:09.839 couple hours is most optimal. But again,
00:34:11.918 it’s not um it does depend on when they
00:34:14.639 ate last. And I think about more
00:34:17.040 practically speaking and maybe you can
00:34:18.639 speak to your experience, but if you
00:34:20.320 train fasted and don’t eat for several
00:34:22.800 hours, um someone who chronically
00:34:25.440 trains, you’re not going to see as much
00:34:27.040 of an effect, but you’ll probably be
00:34:28.480 more sore. Um so then are we trying to
00:34:31.199 optimize recovery? And so I think it
00:34:33.199 comes down like will you be fine?
00:34:34.639 Absolutely. especially if our goals are
00:34:36.960 are V2 max. Um I’m at a space where I
00:34:40.239 want to optimize body composition or I
00:34:42.480 don’t get to train as much as I want.
00:34:44.159 And the really the response is why
00:34:46.079 wouldn’t you eat? You know, like you
00:34:47.839 need to eat anyways. Will I add an added
00:34:50.879 smoothie? No, but I’ll add a meal so
00:34:53.520 that then my nutrients are available
00:34:55.199 when I need it. Do you think that there
00:34:57.359 is the and again I know that you’re
00:34:58.800 doing a lot of this work right now. Uh
00:35:00.960 again the discussion we hear a lot and I
00:35:03.920 think in our space is men and women
00:35:06.400 where are they the same and where are
00:35:07.920 they different
00:35:11.119 let’s say post-menopausal women who now
00:35:13.599 potentially it’s so difficult we we just
00:35:15.920 have to say that listen we are trying to
00:35:18.320 make it black and white but the reality
00:35:20.520 is let’s say someone is postmenopausal
00:35:23.760 um does that now make her equal to her
00:35:26.800 male counterpart at that age and it it
00:35:28.640 doesn’t it’s just
00:35:30.480 It’s it’s so challenging. It is
00:35:32.240 challenging and everyone has different
00:35:33.760 goals. And so I mean I think with women
00:35:36.720 what I run into and what we’re seeing is
00:35:39.760 that many of them aren’t fueling because
00:35:42.320 they have this desire to lose fat mass.
00:35:45.760 Um but what it seems is if we have some
00:35:47.920 protein or amino acids prior to exercise
00:35:50.800 in comparison to fasting or carbohydrate
00:35:53.680 they have they they feel better. They
00:35:55.520 can do greater volume, greater
00:35:56.960 intensity. Um, so it’s more of an
00:35:59.280 indirect effect, whereas a lot of times
00:36:01.280 women come underfueled and then they
00:36:03.200 don’t feel very good and they have a
00:36:04.720 hard time recovering. And that makes a
00:36:06.480 lot of sense. Do you um see individuals,
00:36:11.359 they say, uh, you know, I’m looking at
00:36:12.720 some of my notes here. Many individuals
00:36:15.680 say, “I hit menopause and now I’ve
00:36:17.119 gained weight.” And I think that some of
00:36:20.800 your research shows that it really is
00:36:22.400 focused on lifestyle and perhaps less of
00:36:26.480 metabolic changes. Can you speak to
00:36:28.720 that? Yeah, I mean that’s what we’re
00:36:30.320 trying to figure out now.
00:36:31.960 Uh there is very real data that shows
00:36:34.880 that women hit menopause and they do
00:36:36.640 gain weight. Um and we’re trying to see
00:36:38.960 what kind of weight and it does seem to
00:36:40.960 be yes they gain fat mass but more um I
00:36:44.800 think importantly they lose muscle. And
00:36:47.680 so when we start to think about
00:36:48.880 approaches to that, how do we handle it?
00:36:51.599 And also thinking I think more from a
00:36:54.400 practical standpoint, um chronic
00:36:57.280 exercise seems to help with that.
00:36:59.920 Meaning uh the sooner you can start to
00:37:02.320 train the better. And I say that because
00:37:04.400 a lot of women, I mean, we all feel
00:37:06.079 guilty when taking care of ourselves to
00:37:08.480 I do not I I don’t Oh, good. I’m like,
00:37:11.040 you do not want to talk to me unless
00:37:13.599 we’ve gotten some training done. We’re
00:37:15.200 just It’s not We’re not going to be
00:37:16.000 friends. Well, maybe it’s not guilty.
00:37:17.359 Like, yes, I’m going to prioritize my
00:37:19.280 training, but we have a lot of other
00:37:20.640 needs that are pulling at us. And so,
00:37:23.200 prioritizing our exercise can help us in
00:37:25.200 the long run. Um, and it does seem that
00:37:27.839 something’s happening in that pmenopause
00:37:30.000 window. Yeah, I agree. And I um I want
00:37:34.400 to and I actually really struggle with
00:37:36.400 this because I worked on some of the
00:37:38.640 early studies in the early 2000s um with
00:37:41.119 Dr. Donald Layman. This is the kind of
00:37:42.800 the first group looking at he looked at
00:37:45.280 pmenopause postmenopause these were
00:37:47.680 largely untrained individuals and we
00:37:51.720 couldn’t find a difference in terms of
00:37:55.680 when diet and exercise were controlled
00:37:57.680 again they they were new they were able
00:38:00.400 to lose comparable amounts of weight
00:38:03.280 maintain lean mass we were using DEXA
00:38:06.079 again for the listener DEXA is not
00:38:08.000 sensitive it’s an extrapolation of all
00:38:10.800 um lean lean mass and skeletal muscle
00:38:13.119 mass is a portion of that. And I
00:38:16.400 personally want to believe and I’m sure
00:38:18.480 that I don’t know maybe we’ll find
00:38:20.880 something because some women go through
00:38:22.880 menopause and everything changes. And
00:38:25.200 then some women go through menopause and
00:38:28.480 fine they’re great. Yeah. Yeah. I mean
00:38:31.920 so very preliminary what we’re trying to
00:38:34.160 and what we’re seeing now is trying to
00:38:35.760 understand some of these metabolic rate
00:38:37.440 changes and is it driven by muscle size
00:38:41.440 quality
00:38:43.079 hormones exercise and this is very early
00:38:46.960 um but a lot of it those women we’ve
00:38:49.440 seen women with resting metabolic rate
00:38:51.280 of 500
00:38:52.680 calories which is crazy and when you ask
00:38:55.280 is it accurate do you think those are
00:38:56.960 accurate measures we’re also adding
00:38:58.640 doubly labeled water to try and get that
00:39:01.119 accuracy. So, there is some variability,
00:39:03.359 but it’s very different than what you
00:39:05.440 would expect for someone in that size.
00:39:08.000 And it seems to be more driven by their
00:39:10.000 lack of eating, meaning like they might
00:39:12.560 be fasting for most of the day, which
00:39:15.119 makes a little bit of sense. I don’t
00:39:16.480 think it’s the only thing, but I I take
00:39:19.440 that in a way of we should be fueling
00:39:22.079 our bodies and if the less you eat, your
00:39:24.480 metabolic rate might come down. And I
00:39:26.480 think we see more of that behaviorally
00:39:28.160 because body composition is changing.
00:39:30.480 But it speaks to something we said
00:39:32.200 before. How can we optimize it? One of
00:39:35.359 the things that we know uh mitochondria
00:39:38.320 are the best way to help with that
00:39:40.880 metabolic rate and we be if we become
00:39:42.880 very efficient meaning if we do zone 2
00:39:45.200 training forever um your mitochondria
00:39:48.000 are very efficient. And so doing things
00:39:50.000 that um make them less efficient things
00:39:52.960 like interval training. We look at a lot
00:39:56.000 of high-intensity resistance training.
00:39:57.599 Just stimulating the muscle and the
00:39:59.680 mitochondria in a way it’s not used to
00:40:01.520 can help with support that metabolic
00:40:03.520 rate. That that is
00:40:05.800 fascinating when you are thinking about
00:40:08.320 you know one of the the things I love
00:40:09.839 about your science and your work is you
00:40:11.119 do make it very translatable. So it’s
00:40:12.800 not mechanistic data and then trying to
00:40:15.280 make broad generalizations but really
00:40:18.480 trying to translate good work to the
00:40:21.520 world. If you were to say, “Okay,
00:40:24.240 ladies, listen up. You’ve gained central
00:40:26.400 body fat, uh, or men, because men, you
00:40:29.160 guys, you know, you’re not exempt to
00:40:31.760 this, and you said, I want you to do
00:40:35.200 this kind of training program. Let’s
00:40:36.560 take an untrained individual or even we
00:40:39.040 could say untrained or even beginner
00:40:40.640 training that now needs to push
00:40:41.760 themselves.” I’ve heard you mentioned
00:40:43.760 high-intensity interval training. I also
00:40:46.160 heard you me mention high interval
00:40:48.960 resistance training. So, I want to talk
00:40:50.960 about that. and then straight up
00:40:52.480 resistance training. Mhm. How would you
00:40:54.480 think about putting it all together?
00:40:56.319 Gosh, I mean this is very simple, but
00:41:00.160 doing something is better than nothing.
00:41:01.839 Um, always. Yes. So, uh, and adding HIT
00:41:05.599 training, interval training twice a
00:41:08.000 week. Uh, and then resistance training
00:41:10.800 at least three times a week is where I
00:41:12.880 would start. Do you care if it’s full
00:41:14.760 body split? Do you care if it’s compound
00:41:18.160 movements? Do you care if it’s machines?
00:41:20.720 Where where are you at? I mean, I think
00:41:22.079 if we’re starting, it doesn’t matter,
00:41:23.680 but yes, you want to hit the larger
00:41:25.200 muscle groups. So, think about your
00:41:26.880 quads and your like big movements are
00:41:29.040 where I would start. Um, we need to
00:41:31.359 remove barriers for people that are
00:41:33.359 training. So, adding a stimulus to the
00:41:36.480 muscle is the first place to start.
00:41:38.800 Perfect. What about So, uh, what about
00:41:41.400 high-intensity interval resistance
00:41:43.280 training? Yeah. So, high-intensity
00:41:44.640 resistance training. The only difference
00:41:46.480 it is is it’s and what that is, it’s
00:41:48.800 progressive resistance training. So the
00:41:50.800 load is usually six to eight% or six to
00:41:54.640 eight um 1 RM. 6 to 8%. So like you can
00:41:57.920 only lift a weight six to eight reps is
00:42:00.240 the load that you want with short rests.
00:42:02.800 So about 30 seconds in between each
00:42:05.839 exercise or each rep. And the reason
00:42:08.560 that we do that is just time efficient
00:42:10.400 and it’s heavy. So we see a lot of
00:42:12.800 people obviously the first six weeks are
00:42:15.359 usually neuromuscular changes of people.
00:42:17.680 And what does that mean for the
00:42:18.640 listener? That just means you should if
00:42:20.319 you have never lifted weights you should
00:42:22.640 expect to see increases in strength and
00:42:25.200 load quite quickly. It’s your body’s
00:42:27.680 ability to lift that weight kind of
00:42:30.480 activate those neurons. Um it’s not
00:42:33.440 morphological. It’s not necessarily
00:42:35.119 coming from the muscle itself. I think
00:42:37.599 sometimes people are scared, especially
00:42:39.040 women, of like, oh, I shouldn’t be able
00:42:40.480 to lift that much weight. Um, but that’s
00:42:43.520 normal and we want that heavy load. So,
00:42:46.160 they’re afraid to um What you’re saying
00:42:49.599 is that the the tissue changes don’t
00:42:52.160 happen. So, the morphological fiber type
00:42:55.119 changes don’t happen, but the ability to
00:42:58.880 generate force and lift those weights.
00:43:02.160 You said neuromuscular and for the
00:43:04.640 listener is that the brain connection to
00:43:06.240 the muscle? Yeah. And um I mean one
00:43:08.640 thing to think about a lot of people are
00:43:09.920 worried about lifting weights cuz
00:43:11.119 they’re going to gain too much muscle.
00:43:12.960 Wish I could have that. I know. I’m
00:43:14.720 still trying. Can we please end this? We
00:43:16.640 have to never again on any other podcast
00:43:19.440 or any women. You will not get bulky
00:43:22.079 ever. I wish we would. I’m trying. I
00:43:24.079 know. I’m still trying. I guess I got to
00:43:26.000 start fast and exercise according. So is
00:43:27.680 my producer Matt. He’s still trying to
00:43:28.960 put that muscle over there. Um that is
00:43:31.920 the the first six to eight weeks are is
00:43:34.880 that again and the idea of muscle memory
00:43:38.319 it is not that is it? No it’s your
00:43:40.319 brain’s ability to recruit more muscle
00:43:43.359 fibers essentially and so the more
00:43:45.839 trained you are the more motor units you
00:43:48.480 can kind of attract to allow those
00:43:51.119 muscle fibers to contract which will
00:43:52.800 allow you to lift a heavier weight and
00:43:55.040 that’s a good thing. That means you can
00:43:56.880 carry more groceries, you know, or more
00:43:58.800 children. Or more children. Absolutely.
00:44:00.560 And th those happen like if you’ve never
00:44:02.640 exercised or resistance trained, those
00:44:05.280 will happen quickly. Now, if you’re
00:44:07.440 someone that lifted when you were
00:44:09.359 younger and then start again, then it
00:44:11.920 maybe is not 6 weeks. Maybe it’s closer
00:44:13.599 to 3 to four. And I say that because a
00:44:16.240 lot of times people will start lifting
00:44:18.319 and then pick one load and keep that
00:44:20.319 load for a long time. Is that a mistake?
00:44:22.880 It’s a mistake if we want to u maximize
00:44:25.280 the effect of our workouts. We want to
00:44:27.440 progressively load the muscle um which
00:44:30.480 also indirectly helps the bone
00:44:33.640 and what you’re referring to is
00:44:35.680 progressive overload. And then I’m sure
00:44:37.440 that there’s also progressive stimulus
00:44:39.839 whether it’s and I was talking to Dr.
00:44:41.839 Jordan Shallow about this and he really
00:44:44.319 opened my eyes to this idea that it is
00:44:46.560 it doesn’t always have to be loaded
00:44:48.400 because eventually you’re not going to
00:44:50.319 want to squat more than 250 lbs. I mean
00:44:53.359 maybe but then you worried about your
00:44:56.000 back and your joints and you might risk
00:44:57.760 getting injured. Man, women have it
00:44:59.359 rough from joint pains to uh pregnancy.
00:45:02.480 It’s one of the most challenging times
00:45:04.480 for the female body and there are a lot
00:45:06.560 of demands placed on the body with the
00:45:10.079 growing needs of the baby. 95% of women
00:45:13.839 in the perinatal stage have nutrient
00:45:17.280 deficiencies. Most prenatal vitamins
00:45:19.599 include the bare minimum nutrition based
00:45:21.920 on outdated guidance and sale research.
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00:45:27.760 and there are so many supplements out
00:45:30.960 there, it can be hard to know which one
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00:47:14.560 Line for 20% off your first order. What
00:47:17.440 is one of the biggest misconceptions
00:47:19.040 from aging perspective? I was going
00:47:20.960 through um much of your work and I
00:47:22.640 really focused on your work regarding
00:47:24.880 women, but you do look at both men and
00:47:27.280 women and is there a training
00:47:29.839 misconception midlife that people
00:47:33.040 continue to perpetuate that maybe holds
00:47:35.359 them back from their goals? Yeah, I mean
00:47:37.520 a lot of my early work we we studied an
00:47:39.920 older group with males and females with
00:47:42.160 resistance training and HMBB and which
00:47:44.880 is a lucine metabolite. it is. Uh, and I
00:47:47.920 think the biggest misconception is that
00:47:50.000 you can gain strength and muscle no
00:47:52.000 matter what age you are, which is really
00:47:53.920 important. Like it’s never too late to
00:47:55.440 start. Um, and we should be empowered by
00:47:58.160 that. You guys hear that? Which is an
00:48:01.280 interesting statement. So it’s not that
00:48:03.800 um, you know, people are doing it wrong,
00:48:06.319 they’re just not doing it at all or not
00:48:08.240 doing it with enough of a stimulus. You
00:48:10.720 have to have I you know sometimes you
00:48:13.839 have to lift something heavier than what
00:48:15.680 your normal dayto-day looks like and
00:48:17.839 then once that’s easier you’ve got to
00:48:19.599 continue to progress that load and load.
00:48:23.440 Does it matter if someone lifts heavy or
00:48:26.640 and obviously heavy is all relative?
00:48:29.040 Tell me about that. Yeah, I love this
00:48:31.119 question and actually a study I hope to
00:48:34.000 do is the the messaging right now is
00:48:36.000 lift heavy weights but for everybody you
00:48:38.559 think? I mean, that’s the messaging, but
00:48:40.079 I think I have a little bit of a problem
00:48:41.440 with that of what does that mean? And I
00:48:43.040 think people could be intimidated and it
00:48:45.119 could be harmful, like if you lift too
00:48:47.440 heavy. Um, I’d like to know what that
00:48:50.480 threshold stimulus is. And really, I
00:48:53.920 mean, that’s a lot of it of what is your
00:48:55.920 baseline strength and how do we have a
00:48:58.880 slightly heavier stimulus than what’s
00:49:01.599 your baseline strength and then we could
00:49:03.280 continue to to provide that stimulus. or
00:49:06.319 for someone that trains regularly, like
00:49:08.880 I don’t always progressively overload,
00:49:11.920 um my goal is to maintain muscle and and
00:49:15.280 sometimes increase it depending on where
00:49:17.119 I’m at in my training cycle, but it it’s
00:49:20.079 not largely a lot of load. It’s volume.
00:49:22.880 It’s intensity driven. I am number one
00:49:26.160 surprised that this is still
00:49:27.680 controversial.
00:49:29.440 It’s a it’s a bit surprising when you
00:49:31.760 look at the various groups. I would say
00:49:34.880 that we probably both agree that when
00:49:36.800 you find data and it comes from multiple
00:49:38.720 groups over a period of time, we now
00:49:41.520 have a collection of literature. And
00:49:43.760 from what I’ve seen, the collection of
00:49:45.680 literature doesn’t indicate that we have
00:49:47.839 to lift heavy weights to still make
00:49:50.640 progress. And yeah, even in the
00:49:53.359 geriatric world, you look at some of Stu
00:49:55.760 Phillips work, it is not about the
00:49:58.800 heaviness of the load. It’s about the
00:50:01.760 increase in stimulus. Yeah. which can
00:50:04.000 also be and you’re saying this but um
00:50:06.000 can also be tackled with volume.
00:50:08.240 Absolutely. Uh which is important. Do we
00:50:11.920 believe or or do you think that we will
00:50:14.960 ultimately find differences between men
00:50:17.440 and women and again perhaps when women
00:50:20.319 are younger it’s maybe there is you know
00:50:23.280 from a protein perspective
00:50:25.760 when children when our kids we have
00:50:27.839 young kids when they eat protein they’re
00:50:29.599 very anabolic whether it’s five grams or
00:50:31.680 10 grams again we don’t do muscle
00:50:34.480 biopsies on kids we’re not studying kids
00:50:36.400 but what we can see from the
00:50:39.040 interpretation of the literature are
00:50:40.720 surrounding them is they’re very
00:50:41.839 anabolic. Less intervariability whether
00:50:44.400 it’s a a a male child or female
00:50:48.040 child. Where do you think the
00:50:50.880 differences are that we know from a
00:50:53.040 scientific perspective versus where we
00:50:56.240 think they are? It’s a great question.
00:50:58.720 Um and a heavy one. What’s that? It’s a
00:51:01.920 heavy question. It’s a big question. Um
00:51:03.839 I mean so we actually have a paper in
00:51:05.680 review trying to look at this with more
00:51:08.079 um non-invasive measures of protein
00:51:10.400 turnover and breakdown which is not the
00:51:12.079 best way to do it. Why not do more
00:51:13.760 invasive? Um I don’t want to do biopsies
00:51:17.359 and I don’t I do not blame you. Um I
00:51:19.760 still have PTSD from that. Well and a
00:51:21.520 lot of women don’t want to do that. I
00:51:22.960 mean a lot of men and honestly yeah
00:51:24.880 women tend to be a bit more resilient in
00:51:26.559 the lab. Um you hear that guys?
00:51:29.359 And we are seeing some things that
00:51:32.800 there’s not huge changes across the
00:51:34.640 menstrual cycle. Um I would agree with
00:51:37.119 that. But there are some things
00:51:38.400 happening. For instance, if you are
00:51:40.160 rebuilding the uterine lining or with
00:51:42.800 some of the potentially fuel
00:51:45.240 use, does it actually end up with
00:51:48.240 needing more
00:51:49.640 protein? I wouldn’t tell a woman to
00:51:52.079 change the amount of protein across her
00:51:54.480 30 days if her days, you know, across
00:51:56.640 her cycle. Um but there are some things
00:51:59.680 with recovery coming out like maybe in
00:52:01.599 the ludial phase the recovery is a
00:52:03.359 little bit longer or sleep is not as
00:52:06.000 good. So then that would be a a question
00:52:08.640 about maybe optimizing the timing of the
00:52:11.359 nutrients around the training. Would it
00:52:13.359 be different nutrients? Probably not.
00:52:15.359 Most people are underfueled and not
00:52:16.960 appropriately, you know, fueling
00:52:18.559 anyways. And that’s an interesting
00:52:20.880 perspective. I want to know what you
00:52:23.440 mean by underfueled because right now we
00:52:26.720 have what 70% of the population is
00:52:28.640 either overweight or obese. Yes. So I
00:52:31.599 mean and I I can’t wrap my head around
00:52:33.760 that. I can but when you like when I see
00:52:37.119 participants in the lab and day-to-day
00:52:39.839 and when we look at diet analysis
00:52:42.000 obviously there are lots of um she’s in
00:52:44.559 North Carolina so that’s a there are
00:52:46.640 lots of um yeah you know troubles with
00:52:49.119 that but people don’t eat during the day
00:52:51.440 they or they have very carbohydrate
00:52:53.440 centric processed foods so they’re not
00:52:55.440 getting all of the nutrients that they
00:52:56.880 need and it’s not just protein it’s
00:52:58.400 fiber it’s you know vitamins and
00:52:59.920 minerals and so then when they go to
00:53:01.920 train they don’t have the appropriate
00:53:03.760 fuel, which then can impact recovery,
00:53:06.000 protein synthesis, etc. So, it’s a lot
00:53:08.880 of times just making sure there’s fuel
00:53:11.680 like protein, like carbohydrate around
00:53:14.319 exercise so that when they need it, it’s
00:53:16.240 there versus many windows. And there’s
00:53:19.440 some data that shows going for several
00:53:22.079 hours without fuel does um potentially
00:53:26.000 lead to some I don’t want to say
00:53:27.680 hormonal imbalances, but there’s a lot
00:53:30.000 of things physiologically that makes
00:53:31.440 sense. If you don’t have fuel and you’re
00:53:32.800 up moving around all day, then well, one
00:53:34.960 of the things that I think that we can
00:53:36.400 say um that a lot of the evidence points
00:53:39.920 to is if you cannot manage your blood
00:53:41.920 sugar, you will have fluctuations in
00:53:43.760 cortisol. Is that necessarily a bad
00:53:46.240 thing? If you’re increasing your
00:53:47.760 cortisol to generate more
00:53:49.480 gluconogenesis, then well, you might
00:53:52.240 really make bad choices and you might uh
00:53:55.680 take the nutrients away from say protein
00:53:59.440 synthesis or or various other places. So
00:54:01.680 again, I think it’s probably very
00:54:03.760 complicated. But the other thing that I
00:54:06.000 thought that you said was really
00:54:07.280 interesting is that individuals have I
00:54:11.520 don’t want to say poor diets, but low
00:54:13.359 diet quality. Low quality, right? I love
00:54:15.359 that. That’s positive. Low diet quality.
00:54:18.920 And that definitely would make sense to
00:54:23.680 think about when it looks at the
00:54:25.040 totality of that individual’s ability to
00:54:27.200 recover. Absolutely. Um, again, we I
00:54:30.079 think you and I talk a lot about
00:54:32.680 macronutrients, but again, there are
00:54:34.640 other micronutrients,
00:54:37.280 um, other bioactive ingredients that
00:54:40.559 probably play a role in overall body
00:54:43.680 composition. Again, I say that
00:54:45.200 cautiously because nutrition and
00:54:47.440 exercise physiology, it’s it’s a new
00:54:49.200 science. Yeah. And it’s complicated. I
00:54:51.359 know you had Dr. Heather Heather Leidian
00:54:53.440 who’s done a lot of the quality. She’s
00:54:55.599 awesome. Um, but the quality of the diet
00:54:57.920 has a huge impact. How do you control
00:55:00.480 for that? Well, I mean, gosh, if we
00:55:02.240 knew, we would all be rich, right? Like,
00:55:04.240 um, but that diet quality around
00:55:06.800 exercise tends to have, I mean, it makes
00:55:09.200 sense. It will impact maybe exercise
00:55:11.920 volume, if you’re able to push through,
00:55:13.520 maybe not. But then on that recovery
00:55:15.200 element, which could indirectly impact
00:55:17.119 body composition, muscle mass, and do
00:55:19.760 you look at a lot of the recovery if
00:55:21.440 someone is training hard and
00:55:23.760 underreovering? Um, is that something
00:55:26.160 that you’ve looked at? We are. Recovery
00:55:28.640 is such a kind of funny term. Um, we’re
00:55:31.599 trying to look more at recovery because
00:55:33.200 it’s an under science or under
00:55:35.760 researched area. Really? Yeah. Because
00:55:37.520 when you think about it, um, it’s
00:55:39.440 impacted by so many things outside of an
00:55:42.160 intervention. It’s impacted by sleep.
00:55:45.520 You mentioned cortisol, which is a funny
00:55:47.520 like I mean a hot a hot topic. Um, and
00:55:50.319 then how do you define recovery? uh it
00:55:53.280 could mean a lot of things especially in
00:55:55.920 the female space it’s under researched
00:56:00.319 and um I can appreciate that because
00:56:03.839 there’s things that we can change in our
00:56:05.280 life and there are things that we we
00:56:07.119 can’t change. You had mentioned that
00:56:09.520 women uh and I don’t know if you’ve
00:56:11.599 mentioned but I’ve heard you say that
00:56:13.680 women chronically seem to undereat
00:56:16.240 especially maybe in that transition of
00:56:18.319 of menopause or during menopause. Is
00:56:19.839 that a fair statement? I don’t want to
00:56:20.799 put words in your mouth, but yeah. No,
00:56:22.240 and there’s data that shows the one of
00:56:24.240 the greatest increases in eating
00:56:26.079 disorders is now in that pmenopause
00:56:28.240 space. And would you say that again I
00:56:31.920 have notes here that chronically
00:56:34.480 undereating protein has been a problem
00:56:36.880 and can affect body
00:56:38.599 composition. Do you have thoughts about
00:56:40.720 how women should design diets to
00:56:43.040 actually build and maintain muscle and
00:56:45.200 overall body composition? Yeah, I mean,
00:56:47.520 yes, there’s you should actually tell us
00:56:49.440 that science, but I I mean, it comes
00:56:52.160 back to some of that feasible
00:56:53.599 approaches. Yes. Should we improve our
00:56:56.160 entire day-to-day diet? Absolutely. Um,
00:56:59.520 that’s also a very deep behavioral
00:57:01.599 science. And so, one thing we’ve tried
00:57:03.520 to look at is, well, can we make small
00:57:05.839 changes to the fuel that we eat around
00:57:08.400 exercise to maximize those benefits both
00:57:11.520 body composition and, you know,
00:57:14.200 metabolically? And it does seem that
00:57:17.200 having some amino acids, whether it’s in
00:57:19.839 a usually we’re not eating whole foods
00:57:22.079 right before exercise due to some
00:57:23.839 challenges in digestion, um, but some
00:57:26.400 protein or amino acids prior to exercise
00:57:28.880 tends to help with some of the effects
00:57:31.200 of the workout. That’s interesting. Um,
00:57:33.839 do you mean in terms of performance or
00:57:36.359 soreness or you know again because I’m
00:57:39.119 someone that has always trained fasted?
00:57:42.000 I um I don’t know if I eat but I’m not
00:57:44.960 training for performance per se. It’s
00:57:47.119 both. Um but I also think and I’ll be
00:57:49.760 honest like there are days that I train
00:57:51.559 fasted. Um not I try not to train fasted
00:57:54.400 if I’m lifting weights. But how come?
00:57:56.640 Why do I train fasted? Well, why would
00:57:58.480 you not want to train fasted?
00:58:01.160 Um, when I look at the science and I
00:58:04.160 look at, um, I want to have amino acids
00:58:06.880 available for when I break down the
00:58:08.480 muscle. And I’m also not one person when
00:58:10.559 I get done with my workout, I’m usually
00:58:12.240 off to like help my children. I’m not
00:58:14.319 like going to have a meal anytime soon.
00:58:16.960 Um, so some of it is just optimizing.
00:58:19.839 Will I see negative side effects?
00:58:21.760 Probably not. I also am not trying to
00:58:23.760 get that extra edge. I’m just trying to
00:58:25.760 maintain or like um so it’s just
00:58:29.200 maximizing the little time that you
00:58:31.280 have. And so when we look at more of a
00:58:34.240 untrained or moderately trained
00:58:36.040 population, it does seem that having
00:58:38.480 protein prior to exercise helps with
00:58:40.799 energy expenditure up to an hour after.
00:58:43.839 So increases energy expenditure,
00:58:46.319 increases fat utilization after
00:58:48.880 exercise, which does not always mean fat
00:58:51.200 loss, right? Um, and uh, helps with
00:58:55.359 training volume, which makes a lot of
00:58:57.920 sense to me. Meaning, have you ever done
00:58:59.760 a workout, fasted, and got like dizzy or
00:59:02.839 felt supposed to be? It is, but you keep
00:59:05.680 pushing, which a lot of people then your
00:59:07.520 training volume is lower. So then
00:59:09.520 indirectly, we’ve seen increases in
00:59:11.599 strength and body composition. I don’t
00:59:13.599 think it’s always a direct response. Um,
00:59:16.400 so it’s almost like why not? If you’re
00:59:18.319 training to maximize body composition
00:59:21.359 and by having some fuel beforehand, you
00:59:23.520 know, you probably will feel better,
00:59:25.200 have a greater volume, and you have
00:59:27.760 greater energy expenditure after. Why
00:59:30.480 would that be? Is it just because your
00:59:32.240 ability to perform more? Um, some of it,
00:59:35.920 uh, but we’ve even tried to control for
00:59:38.720 volume, trying to ch maximize or control
00:59:41.599 volume during the exercise. We’re trying
00:59:44.400 to understand some of that now. Is it
00:59:46.160 because you’re still digesting some of
00:59:48.559 the protein? Is it like a thermic effect
00:59:50.640 approach? Maybe. Um I would find that
00:59:53.520 hard to believe with just amino acids
00:59:55.359 because it doesn’t take a lot of um
00:59:56.880 metabolic rate. Or is it because you’re
00:59:59.760 kind of refueling the amino acid pool? I
01:00:02.400 actually don’t know. It would be
01:00:04.400 interesting. And then how do you guys
01:00:06.880 measure energy expenditure? Is it a
01:00:08.400 metabolic cart or is it So our early
01:00:10.640 work is using metabolic cart. Now we are
01:00:13.520 using um a tool called microiolysis. So
01:00:16.799 and we’re using doubly labeled water to
01:00:19.200 micro diialysis. Yeah. It doesn’t give
01:00:21.119 us energy expenditure. It gives us um
01:00:24.480 kind of fuel utilization. So more fat
01:00:27.119 oxidation which allows us to understand
01:00:29.040 what type of fuel you’re burning. And
01:00:30.799 then doubly labeled water gives us more
01:00:32.799 of a it’s the gold standard for energy
01:00:35.200 expenditure. Yes. And that’s exciting
01:00:37.200 that you guys are going to be utilizing
01:00:39.359 that. That’s amazing. When you design a
01:00:43.359 diet for body comp, what does it look
01:00:45.760 like? Oh my goodness. Um, and is that a
01:00:48.480 fair question? Yeah, it is. It I wish it
01:00:50.559 were that easy. I mean, we could
01:00:52.400 probably need your insight here. But in
01:00:54.240 reality, when I have a body composition
01:00:56.920 conversation, it’s starting each meal
01:00:59.440 with about 30 grams of protein.
01:01:01.119 Obviously, depending on the individual.
01:01:02.960 Yeah, I know. Speaking to the choir. Um,
01:01:05.200 and then I say follow it up with some
01:01:07.280 sort of uh vegetable and or fruit. So
01:01:09.839 prioritizing fiber and then
01:01:11.920 carbohydrates that are are starchy, so
01:01:14.400 nonf fruits and vegetables are really
01:01:16.079 going to be based on how much exercise
01:01:18.400 someone is doing. Essentially, you earn
01:01:20.079 your carbs. Yeah. And I I mean I don’t
01:01:21.920 like to think of it that way because we
01:01:23.359 still carbs are delicious. Um but not if
01:01:26.079 I’m cooking them, but it’s more like
01:01:28.240 what do you need and those carbohydrates
01:01:30.400 you’re getting from your fruit fruits
01:01:31.680 and vegetables and your water content.
01:01:34.240 And so trying to do that as a minimum of
01:01:36.720 three meals a day. Most of us need to
01:01:38.640 eat more than that. Which comes back to
01:01:40.400 that conversation of people
01:01:42.599 underfueling. Very few people are having
01:01:45.520 shocking and it’s hard for me to
01:01:46.720 understand that because the listener is
01:01:48.480 probably thinking under fueling. I
01:01:49.920 thought the majority of us are eating
01:01:51.119 too much. And maybe it’s an
01:01:52.960 overconumption, but it’s um under
01:01:55.520 nutrition. Under nutrition for sure. And
01:01:57.760 that perhaps it’s the nutrient density
01:02:01.760 is too the nutrient quality is too low,
01:02:04.640 but the caloric density is too high.
01:02:07.200 because you know you’re not going to
01:02:08.640 build muscle and change body composition
01:02:12.119 without amino acids where I mean it’s
01:02:14.559 just not going to happen or or without
01:02:17.040 most Americans will have a little bit of
01:02:18.880 for breakfast maybe a little bit more
01:02:20.640 for lunch I mean Don layman’s work you
01:02:22.799 know where everyone then throws down at
01:02:25.119 dinner and then consumes a lot of their
01:02:27.119 calories then so it’s even spreading
01:02:29.359 those nutrients out and I have here that
01:02:31.760 your research if someone were to look at
01:02:33.680 your research and try to translate that
01:02:35.280 that the protein recommendation is
01:02:37.920 greater than or equal to 1.6 grams uh
01:02:41.760 1.6 grams per kg a day of protein in
01:02:44.799 active women. Yeah. So that was
01:02:46.400 translated from Dr. Mark Tarnipolski’s
01:02:48.640 work looking at some sexbased
01:02:50.079 differences and I think it’s a good
01:02:51.760 starting point like if you’re a female
01:02:54.319 based on some of you know even if it’s
01:02:56.960 smaller muscle or muscle mass or
01:02:59.359 whatever it may be 1.6 is a really good
01:03:01.359 starting point. Would you say um greater
01:03:04.799 than or around 2.0 grams per kg is
01:03:07.440 better? I’m looking here for
01:03:08.640 postmenopausal women. I would even say
01:03:11.040 for permenopause. I agree. I agree as
01:03:14.000 well. And that goes back to most
01:03:15.760 permenopausal women are trying to
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01:05:17.599 order. And so somewhat of a hypoc
01:05:21.039 caloric or you know matching um goal is
01:05:24.720 what we want and anytime you do that you
01:05:26.480 want to slightly increase the protein
01:05:28.000 intake and probably also for men as
01:05:30.720 well. Absolutely right. You know I I
01:05:32.720 think what you have done is a really
01:05:35.200 good job. We both feel very passionately
01:05:38.640 about making the world better. And the
01:05:42.880 whether it’s a male or a female, the
01:05:45.039 reality is women are on our study. They
01:05:47.280 weren’t even required to be in research
01:05:48.960 until 1993.
01:05:51.440 And there’s just a lot of questions and
01:05:53.599 people don’t know where to turn or what
01:05:55.280 to think. From my perspective, I think
01:05:57.920 that good lifestyle habits, regardless
01:06:00.720 whether you are a man or a woman,
01:06:03.359 there’s probably less of a difference.
01:06:05.680 And perhaps if you are some elite
01:06:07.359 athlete or um you know there may be a
01:06:11.200 more evolved conversation eventually
01:06:14.000 about how do we do things that are women
01:06:17.119 specific but from my perspective I I
01:06:20.400 feel like we’re not there yet. I don’t
01:06:22.559 know if you feel like we are or there
01:06:24.799 are things that we know even when it
01:06:27.039 comes to osteoporosis men get
01:06:28.400 osteoporosis too. Absolutely. Yeah. I
01:06:30.400 think my passion that fell with the
01:06:33.119 female space is really because one they
01:06:36.799 really want the information and they
01:06:38.799 don’t have it. So does it need to be
01:06:40.640 different than a males? It needs to be
01:06:42.480 different in the way we deliver it and
01:06:44.240 how we meet their lifestyle. There are
01:06:46.880 also a lot of um mental health changes
01:06:49.920 and think about just women are CEOs of
01:06:52.559 their household. Meaning like we need to
01:06:54.880 give them the information that will also
01:06:57.280 impact their spouses and their children.
01:07:00.400 And sometimes it’s in a slightly
01:07:01.839 different way of like you could tell a
01:07:03.440 man to eat 30 grams of protein and they
01:07:05.280 may have a better idea of what that
01:07:06.640 looks like because of our environment
01:07:08.960 where a woman might think that’s way too
01:07:11.280 much for me and how do I do that? Um,
01:07:13.520 and so I think it’s just taking the
01:07:15.599 science and putting it in a way that
01:07:17.359 makes sense for a woman who is juggling
01:07:20.319 a lot of things. As well as we know in
01:07:22.799 that pmenopause space, there are a lot
01:07:25.520 of physiological and psychological
01:07:28.079 changes that impact maybe how we
01:07:30.480 interpret things or able to kind of
01:07:32.880 enact things. Have you looked at the
01:07:36.079 influence of hormones or hormone
01:07:37.960 replacement on training our body
01:07:40.319 composition?
01:07:41.839 not we haven’t p published any data. uh
01:07:44.480 our last few studies have said no
01:07:46.480 hormone therapy um and just looked at
01:07:48.960 hormones naturally uh to help us
01:07:51.599 understand that some of our new work
01:07:53.520 because so many women are now taking
01:07:55.839 hormone therapy based off the you know
01:07:58.160 kind of the the back end of the women’s
01:08:00.160 health initiative
01:08:02.319 um most of the data I have not done but
01:08:05.520 have a big interest in it and you and I
01:08:08.319 have chatted a little bit about the
01:08:10.720 impact of hormone therapy on body
01:08:13.440 composition position, which is partly
01:08:15.359 also why I’m passionate about it. Like
01:08:17.359 even if a woman takes hormones, it is
01:08:20.238 not going to override the lifestyle
01:08:22.960 approaches. But I think that’s where we
01:08:25.439 lack. And hopefully what I can
01:08:27.198 contribute is, okay, well, what do we
01:08:29.359 need to do exercise-wise to be able to
01:08:32.479 stimulate muscle changes and bone
01:08:34.880 changes and metabolic changes even with
01:08:37.920 that hormone um metabolic kind of
01:08:40.960 perturbation? And that that makes a lot
01:08:43.359 of sense because again when we give
01:08:46.238 individuals progesterone or estrogen
01:08:48.640 even testosterone we don’t see it change
01:08:52.799 body composition drastically. Yeah. And
01:08:55.040 especially if they are not doing the
01:08:57.920 lifestyle component pieces. It it
01:08:59.600 doesn’t make a difference. Yeah. I
01:09:01.040 agree. I I would ask you do you see any
01:09:02.960 changes on
01:09:04.960 um maybe like their motivation to
01:09:07.198 exercise or their sleep like indirect
01:09:09.920 effects? Absolutely. M when and you know
01:09:12.560 if you look at some of the body
01:09:13.839 composition literature and even the
01:09:15.439 standard guidelines hormone replacement
01:09:17.600 therapy is not considered a treatment
01:09:19.520 for body composition. Yes. But what you
01:09:22.719 are saying in terms of sleep we know
01:09:24.319 progesterone affects sleep. You know
01:09:26.479 even estrogen and some of these
01:09:28.960 testosterone testosterone metabolites
01:09:31.040 all help with joint pain recovery. But
01:09:34.719 again does this translate directly to
01:09:36.640 body composition changes? I I think as
01:09:39.520 we begin to study it more probably but
01:09:42.799 where we are right now I I can’t say
01:09:44.399 that that’s true. No. And I mean I think
01:09:47.359 it’s more of an indirect effect of like
01:09:50.880 can they now have greater volume or
01:09:53.198 maybe better recovery um or a lot of
01:09:55.600 women like you said deal with pain or
01:09:57.760 even just no energy to go do the
01:10:00.320 exercise. Um, but that adds so many
01:10:03.840 different layers of variability when
01:10:05.679 doing, you know, a controlled trial,
01:10:07.520 which I know you’ve had conversations
01:10:09.719 about. And um, no, I mean, I think we
01:10:12.719 need more work, but my
01:10:15.159 first stance would be, well, let’s not
01:10:17.600 wait for the work. Like, we need the
01:10:18.960 lifestyle behavior changes. That’s
01:10:20.800 what’s going to be the biggest stimulus
01:10:22.560 on body composition. What about the
01:10:25.520 advanced traininee? The person who is
01:10:28.120 totally already well-trained. What are
01:10:31.280 they going to do to maintain body comp?
01:10:33.440 That’s a good question. I wish we had
01:10:35.280 the answer. I mean, it it’s those people
01:10:38.480 that those small changes are going to
01:10:40.480 make a big difference or um I mean the
01:10:42.719 best part about science and knowing
01:10:44.239 science is to to use your own body as an
01:10:47.199 experiment to some extent. None. Yeah.
01:10:49.520 Yeah. So like maybe it is altering their
01:10:51.840 nutrition slightly different. um if
01:10:53.920 they’ve already consumed a high protein
01:10:55.920 diet. Uh there is some interesting data
01:10:58.239 that shows about a 60% deviation in a
01:11:01.600 young muscle is needed to see
01:11:03.600 improvements in muscle size. What does
01:11:05.600 that mean? That’s interesting. So like
01:11:07.040 if someone’s consuming um let’s say 1.3
01:11:10.480 g per kilogram uh per day of protein,
01:11:13.120 which is within the recommended norms,
01:11:15.520 um maybe now they need to go up to two
01:11:17.840 grams per kilogram for that deviation.
01:11:19.920 Oh, that’s interesting. I would love to
01:11:21.360 see that. that is I mean it makes sense
01:11:25.120 um and I I would just I would love to
01:11:26.880 see that. I haven’t seen it done in
01:11:28.320 women. Okay. Um but that would be the
01:11:30.159 thing of a lot of times and I am guilty
01:11:32.640 of this as a scientist too of what does
01:11:34.400 the data show? But ultimately everything
01:11:36.960 we do is weighing our risks and our
01:11:39.760 benefits, you know, and in reality
01:11:42.400 modifying your dietary protein and or
01:11:45.840 fiber and micronutrients, there’s very
01:11:48.000 little risk to that. Um, which could
01:11:50.800 benefit uh an individual. Where, if you
01:11:54.640 could wave a magic wand, where would you
01:11:56.480 ideally like to see the collective
01:11:59.920 research group go for answers?
01:12:04.159 like what type of answers what I mean.
01:12:06.560 So I I think uh I don’t know. I left it
01:12:09.120 kind of open ended so that you could
01:12:10.880 pick, you know, for me. I know. I’ll
01:12:12.880 give you what I would love to see. Yeah.
01:12:14.400 Okay. Um I would love You want to go
01:12:16.239 first? You want me to go first? Are you
01:12:18.400 ready? Yeah. Okay, then you go. Okay. Um
01:12:20.719 this is probably because I’m a
01:12:22.679 physiologist, but we need good solid
01:12:26.239 recommendations for exercise in women.
01:12:29.280 Do I think they’re going to be
01:12:30.239 different? I actually don’t know if
01:12:31.520 they’ll be that different. But right now
01:12:33.199 all of our recommendations are based on
01:12:35.199 men and I is that true? Yeah. Tell me
01:12:38.480 about that. Like I mean maybe it’s been
01:12:41.440 research in males and females combined.
01:12:43.920 So for example the ISSN will say okay
01:12:47.199 here are the general guidelines which is
01:12:49.040 international society for sports
01:12:50.880 nutrition or well yeah so ACSM and will
01:12:54.800 make our exercise recommendations. Well,
01:12:57.440 they’re just very broad. And so when we
01:13:00.000 start to look at some of the nuances
01:13:01.600 related to muscle mass and bone mass,
01:13:06.000 um, will it need to be different in
01:13:07.760 males and females? right now. I don’t
01:13:10.080 know if it will be, but I would really
01:13:11.840 love to see some of that data and to
01:13:14.320 say, okay, if you are a middle-aged
01:13:17.679 female and you’re seeing changes in body
01:13:19.520 composition, um, would you see benefits
01:13:22.320 from zone 2 training or highintensity
01:13:25.520 resistance training or hit training and
01:13:28.239 that be a bit more specific? Right now,
01:13:30.000 our guidelines say, you know, do 150
01:13:32.880 minutes per week of activity or 75
01:13:35.280 minutes of highintensity, throw in a
01:13:36.960 little resistance training. Um, but I
01:13:38.960 think we need to narrow that for males
01:13:40.480 and females, but I I think we can do
01:13:43.679 better so that it’s not so confusing. Do
01:13:46.239 you imagine it be somewhat of a
01:13:49.440 flowchart? Would it look like you are a
01:13:52.880 permenopausal woman who has always been
01:13:55.199 athletic with no pre-existing
01:13:57.360 conditions? You need to be doing
01:13:59.199 highintensity interval training. This,
01:14:01.520 do you know if we were to to kind of
01:14:02.960 think about how we would do that? I mean
01:14:04.560 I think it would be um training age will
01:14:07.920 definitely have a role but I I do think
01:14:09.840 their goals will matter um in outcomes.
01:14:13.280 I think some of it you would tell
01:14:14.960 everyone to do highintensity interval
01:14:17.040 training but maybe um a bit more
01:14:19.360 prescriptive depending like you
01:14:21.120 mentioned there are a lot of women that
01:14:23.040 have been active but continue to gain
01:14:25.440 fat mass. So what do we do for those
01:14:27.840 people? like I feel like we need to help
01:14:30.320 them. Yeah. Um versus exercise becoming
01:14:33.280 frustrating or those are the people that
01:14:35.520 then work out even harder and then end
01:14:38.080 up with injuries and then unable to
01:14:40.239 train. Do have you thought about a
01:14:42.000 solution for that? I mean I think this
01:14:45.120 is maybe pessimistic but I feel like we
01:14:47.360 don’t have that foundational work. So my
01:14:49.600 initial solution is let’s start with
01:14:51.280 what we think would work kind of for
01:14:52.719 everyone and to start to see is there
01:14:54.400 any difference so that we can start to
01:14:56.719 target some of those harder responders.
01:15:01.000 And do you believe that it’s
01:15:04.920 intervariability that is it based on age
01:15:07.600 or is it based on the individual? I mean
01:15:10.480 I I I don’t think it’s based on age. I
01:15:12.960 think which is which is amazing and and
01:15:15.840 I would guess that many of the listeners
01:15:18.080 or if you guys are watching this you
01:15:19.840 might feel that it really is based on
01:15:21.440 age and it’s again you’re never too old
01:15:24.000 you’re also never too young right
01:15:25.600 absolutely and I mean menopause is
01:15:28.080 natural aging like that is aging but
01:15:31.040 there’s a lot of things going on that
01:15:32.480 seem to be more than age and those are
01:15:35.679 the things like how how can we um tackle
01:15:38.320 some of those and you’re absolutely
01:15:39.440 right like a lot of the data seems that
01:15:41.280 the sooner you start the better. But if
01:15:43.600 you start, it’s never too late. And I
01:15:45.360 think that’s important, especially when
01:15:46.880 we look at our 20-year-olds and early
01:15:49.280 30s. Like there’s a lot you can do now
01:15:51.199 that actually will have a big impact
01:15:52.960 when you are in postmenopause. When you
01:15:55.120 say prescriptive, do you think that
01:15:57.360 there are um ways of training that are a
01:15:59.920 bit underststudied or that we’re not
01:16:01.440 exploring more? For example,
01:16:02.640 plyometrics.
01:16:04.560 Absolutely. And um you don’t want just
01:16:07.600 people to go do plyometrics. No, you you
01:16:10.480 I mean unless you want a really busy ER
01:16:12.320 or a busy surgical suite, go right
01:16:14.880 ahead. Uh you know, cuz I was thinking
01:16:16.880 about this as I think about what you
01:16:19.520 were talking about this prescription and
01:16:21.600 what do we need to do to number one
01:16:24.480 improve performance and also allow
01:16:27.199 people to continue to train over over a
01:16:29.520 lifetime. Absolutely. And I like I I
01:16:32.560 recently injured my calf and I should
01:16:34.480 have done some plyometric. I I did too.
01:16:37.280 How did you Let’s Let’s I don’t even
01:16:39.040 want to tell you the story. I was just
01:16:41.440 bouncing over to tie my kid’s shoe, even
01:16:44.159 though I just ran five miles. Um, but
01:16:47.600 it’s that ability or our loss of ability
01:16:51.120 to recruit our type 2 motor units as we
01:16:54.000 age, our our larger motor units, our
01:16:56.400 larger muscles, which plyometrics, like
01:16:58.880 I should be doing more plyometrics, but
01:17:01.280 how do we integrate that in a way like
01:17:03.280 even and maybe never stop, right? Mhm.
01:17:05.840 And that would be interesting to see if
01:17:07.360 there was some kind of road mapap
01:17:08.960 because
01:17:10.640 you know I was talking to my friend Mark
01:17:12.159 Bell. He’s in his Do you know Mark?
01:17:14.080 Everyone knows Mark. Okay. What’s up
01:17:15.840 homie? Uh we are we’re all very good
01:17:18.719 friends. And he he sprints. He runs.
01:17:21.199 Mhm. And he said, you know, better do it
01:17:23.600 now. I don’t want to lose it.
01:17:25.120 Absolutely. And he’s a big dude. Yeah.
01:17:27.280 Which I wish I sprint. Like just how do
01:17:28.960 you fit that in at 5 in the morning, you
01:17:30.880 know? But if you stop doing it Yep. How
01:17:34.000 do we incorporate? Number one, I’ve
01:17:36.800 asked myself, is it necessary to be
01:17:38.800 explosive?
01:17:40.320 Um, I don’t know if we would consider
01:17:42.159 sprinting explosive, but I would. Okay,
01:17:44.400 great. And then if we’ve stopped doing
01:17:47.360 it, which I have, how do we do it
01:17:50.560 without getting injured? Yeah. And
01:17:52.239 what’s the I always like to ask like
01:17:54.159 what’s the minimum threshold? A lot of
01:17:56.320 people want to know how do we optimize
01:17:58.800 but with a lot of this too like what’s
01:18:00.719 the minimum I can do at this phase in
01:18:03.840 life now there’s like and then what is
01:18:05.760 that prescription if we want more how do
01:18:07.600 we progress and then you know what’s too
01:18:09.840 much cuz too much of this is also not
01:18:11.679 good jump rope I mean I’m afraid to I’ve
01:18:14.960 got a jump rope sitting in my garage oh
01:18:16.640 man you know this is probably really
01:18:19.199 important because most people as they
01:18:21.280 age they step off of a ledge and they
01:18:24.480 fall Mhm. Well, and I mean, we’re in a
01:18:27.199 space that really I don’t want to say
01:18:29.440 idolizes, but we want to look better. We
01:18:31.840 also want to feel better, and I can
01:18:34.080 probably look better without sprinting.
01:18:36.239 And so, it’s like, how do we incorporate
01:18:37.840 that? That’s a really good point. Do we
01:18:39.520 train for aesthetics versus do we train
01:18:42.960 for I don’t want to say injury
01:18:44.480 prevention, but long-term maintenance of
01:18:48.320 muscle span. That’s what we should be
01:18:50.400 training for. It’s hard to do that. Have
01:18:53.120 you ever seen those memes of like, how
01:18:54.560 do you take care of yourself and sleep
01:18:56.239 and grocery shop and work and train?
01:18:58.560 Like, well, how do we do it in a way
01:19:00.000 that fits in our lifestyle that
01:19:02.480 optimizes health and injury prevention?
01:19:05.199 Would you say that? And you said that
01:19:06.960 you’re trying to figure out where to put
01:19:08.080 that plyometric piece in there. I
01:19:10.239 haven’t seen a ton of good data that I
01:19:12.920 understand of how one can do that or
01:19:16.000 from an aging perspective. Have you? No.
01:19:18.239 But I mean honestly that’s partly why we
01:19:21.040 stick with the highintensity interval
01:19:23.040 training model as a starting point
01:19:24.800 because that type of training does help
01:19:27.199 with recruiting those larger motor
01:19:28.960 units. Is it the only way? Absolutely
01:19:31.280 not. But I feel like that’s a good first
01:19:34.080 step where you again minimum amount of
01:19:36.159 time that’s getting the maximum amount
01:19:37.760 of benefit. I have not seen a lot of
01:19:40.400 plyometric data and I was looking yeah
01:19:42.960 um and it just seemed that it’s a bit
01:19:44.640 underwhelming because I think okay well
01:19:47.040 how are we gonna protect bone and does
01:19:49.760 it have to be something different we
01:19:51.440 know that muscle and bone pull together
01:19:54.800 right and that generates force which
01:19:56.320 then seems to generate use
01:19:58.960 none of us want to break a hip n at
01:20:01.760 least not today but what do we actually
01:20:04.480 have to do to do that and do we have to
01:20:07.280 do jumping Mhm. M I don’t know. Well, I
01:20:10.560 think it depends, too. Like, sounds like
01:20:12.800 you and I need to do some more jumping
01:20:14.719 or sprinting. Girl, I’ll meet you out
01:20:17.120 there. I just recently hurt myself
01:20:18.640 again. But yeah,
01:20:21.520 personally, I like to lift heavy and I
01:20:24.239 am, as you know now, a very small human.
01:20:27.360 Maybe I’m be pushing 110 and I’m 5’11.
01:20:32.520 I wanted to, for whatever reason, push a
01:20:35.440 heavy sled. I didn’t really warm up and
01:20:37.280 it was probably close to 350 lbs and man
01:20:40.640 was it fun. Yeah, I was going to say and
01:20:42.320 I did not I did not warm up and then I
01:20:44.480 was throwing these, you know, the bags
01:20:46.480 cuz fun. Yeah. And the next day I could
01:20:48.480 barely move and uh it’s still recovering
01:20:50.400 now and it was just so stupid. What
01:20:51.920 muscle? My calf. I can bar it is killing
01:20:54.480 me. I totally strain my calf. I did the
01:20:56.960 same but not lifting 350 lbs. Oh no. But
01:20:59.600 technically I was pushing. Um, and I,
01:21:02.400 you know, the human body thrives off of
01:21:05.920 challenge and it’s also how we maintain
01:21:08.640 our capacity through life, our
01:21:10.400 faculties, physical and mental and um,
01:21:13.480 understanding how do we design a life
01:21:17.440 where we can push ourselves with without
01:21:20.719 getting injured. I say that cautiously
01:21:22.320 while maintaining performance. Well, and
01:21:24.239 knowing that we will get some injuries,
01:21:26.239 but how do we optimize it? Um, and
01:21:28.560 that’s where a lot of the nutrition and
01:21:30.480 dietary supplement work comes in of how
01:21:32.640 do we then accelerate that? What are you
01:21:35.360 most excited about coming up for you?
01:21:39.040 I’m really excited about this
01:21:40.800 conversation of women’s health. Uh,
01:21:43.040 meaning like when we recruit for a
01:21:44.760 study, I have like 300 women that want
01:21:48.080 to participate. Now, they don’t always
01:21:49.840 fill in that inclusion criteria, but I
01:21:52.159 think the time is now. And I think
01:21:54.560 there’s a lot of good funding. research
01:21:58.360 doesn’t isn’t cheap, but there’s
01:22:00.880 conversations about funding um whether
01:22:02.800 that will actually come to fruition. So,
01:22:04.400 I’m just excited about the opportunity
01:22:06.960 and there’s more groups doing it and I’m
01:22:09.199 a big believer that if we all come
01:22:10.639 together, we can accelerate research
01:22:12.400 because it is so slow. Do you think that
01:22:15.280 with the highlight of women’s health,
01:22:17.760 it’s going to swing people too far? you
01:22:20.639 know, it just seems in in the scientific
01:22:22.320 community, and I think that we’ve both
01:22:23.600 experienced this, is there becomes a ton
01:22:26.560 of excitement and then we overshoot.
01:22:29.120 Yeah. I’ve seen two things. Um, one,
01:22:31.760 I’ve seen there’s actually more barriers
01:22:33.679 to doing work in women’s health because
01:22:36.560 they say it’s not high quality enough.
01:22:38.800 It doesn’t meet the right standards, and
01:22:40.560 therefore, it’s not published. So, it’s
01:22:42.000 actually pushed us back a little bit.
01:22:44.080 And can you explain for the the listener
01:22:45.920 a little bit about what you mean by
01:22:47.199 that? Because I think it’s an important
01:22:48.320 point. Yeah. Yeah, the idea of
01:22:49.520 highquality data and why they would
01:22:51.760 publish versus not publish doesn’t have
01:22:53.199 to be anything deep, but yeah, I think
01:22:55.199 it goes back to our where our
01:22:56.480 conversation started of women weren’t
01:22:58.400 originally included in research because
01:23:00.400 there’s a menstrual cycle or changes in
01:23:02.159 hormones which adds a level of
01:23:04.280 variability. Well, how do you account
01:23:06.320 for that? It does take extra time and
01:23:08.960 money. Um, but sometimes those
01:23:11.440 granularity pieces aren’t necessarily
01:23:13.679 needed. But if you don’t have all of
01:23:15.520 those things, there’s an extra level of
01:23:17.360 scrutiny when publishing data that says,
01:23:19.600 “Oh, you’re studying women. You didn’t
01:23:21.040 do all of these things. It’s shouldn’t
01:23:22.719 be published.” When in reality, that’s
01:23:24.960 throwing the baby out with a bath bomb.
01:23:26.560 Absolutely. And it’s been quite
01:23:28.040 frustrating. Um and I also see this
01:23:32.080 space of research is very competitive of
01:23:36.480 you know like if someone gets a grant or
01:23:38.639 publishes it but in my view like there
01:23:41.360 are so many questions that are needed
01:23:43.360 and we are so far behind we need to
01:23:46.480 change the space to say like we can all
01:23:48.400 come together and there’s enough space
01:23:50.159 for us all and I think if we can swing
01:23:52.560 the pendulum the other way of saying yes
01:23:54.800 there will be some limitations in the
01:23:56.320 research but this is one step forward
01:23:58.960 Let’s make sure we’re not all answering
01:24:01.040 the same questions and let’s kind of
01:24:02.960 accelerate the space. I think that
01:24:05.040 that’s absolutely tremendous and there’s
01:24:06.960 that saying that if you want to go fast,
01:24:08.800 you go alone, but if you want to go far,
01:24:11.440 you go together. I love it. Uh Dr. Abby
01:24:14.560 Smith Ryan, thank you so much for
01:24:16.400 spending your Sunday with me and um I’m
01:24:19.600 really grateful for your poise and
01:24:23.679 desire to help share. So, thank you so
01:24:25.600 much for coming on. Oh, I’m so grateful
01:24:27.120 for the the chance to be here and for
01:24:28.800 all your work. If you found this
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